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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Dec 28, 2013 7:40:09 GMT
Through some map generation testing, we have been noticing some imbalances of planet types and some pointlessly long dead ends.
Our version of tweaking the map will be to take a randomly generated map and approx. balance the rock/ice/gas planets across the galaxy. They will be randomly distributed as best as we can make it. We will also eliminate extremely large dead ends. We want some choke points, but a 20 system long dead end can lead to a boring game for someone stuck in there. We would also add a bunch of systems to allow for a little more room in the game with 20 people.
I would like a some answers to the following questions as well as the poll:
1. Do you want us to tweak the map?
2. Do you want us to balance the rock/ice/gas planets as best as we can?
3. Do you want us to eliminate extremely large dead ends (10+ systems in the dead end)?
4. Do you want us to add systems beyond the current randomly generated large map?
5. Do you want us to add designated starting positions?
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Post by The Kortl Rheus on Dec 28, 2013 18:51:41 GMT
1) Sure
2) Balance is best
3) Link them up with warp gates
4) More systems isn't necessarily better, but mostly it would be best to have a few systems between starting players.
5) Not sure about this one - probably yes?
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Post by Dominion of Zabéara on Dec 28, 2013 18:51:46 GMT
For clarification, in many generated maps, Ice planets (not including moons) are significantly rarer than Rock (and even Gas) planets.
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Post by Sethulkra Hive on Dec 28, 2013 21:07:19 GMT
Knowing the map is half the game. Whoever tweak it will certainly know where are all the good planets, where the choke points are, etc.
I've never noticed any unbalance in the random generation. If a quadrant type doesnt suit you, there are many others. Galactic Edge for example has a pretty neat layout.
On the other hand, the random generation has a pretty limited number of systems and if we're having more than six players, I would vote for a very very large galaxy with near the hard coded limit of 255 systems.
I agree to pre-generating the galaxy, tweaking the map and adding a whole lot of new systems on the condition that whoever does it takes the "Ancient Race" racial trait. It should even the advantage he would have.
As a side note, please, please do not use the SE4 standard system names. Its so small and overused and it is so easy to use another.
I made an immense list for my SE5 Proportions and I can email it to Nick if you agree to use it.
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Post by Dominion of Zabéara on Dec 28, 2013 21:23:08 GMT
Knowing the map is half the game. Whoever tweak it will certainly know where are all the good planets, where the choke points are, etc. I've never noticed any unbalance in the random generation. If a quadrant type doesnt suit you, there are many others. Galactic Edge for example has a pretty neat layout. On the other hand, the random generation has a pretty limited number of systems and if we're having more than six players, I would vote for a very very large galaxy with near the hard coded limit of 255 systems. I agree to pre-generating the galaxy, tweaking the map and adding a whole lot of new systems on the condition that whoever does it takes the "Ancient Race" racial trait. It should even the advantage he would have. As a side note, please, please do not use the SE4 standard system names. Its so small and overused and it is so easy to use another. I made an immense list for my SE5 Proportions and I can email it to Nick if you agree to use it. A system number near the limit of 255 would give us an average of 14-17 systems per empire (assuming 15-19 players). I personally think that amount of space is a bit excessive, although it would be interesting and more realistic. It would produce a more tedious, building focused early and mid game...but also ensure a more interesting end-game...less players would get knocked out early, more room for development. But also less conflict, less border wars, etc. Its essentially a trade-off. I personally wouldn't take the ancient race trait just to pre-generate the map...generating the map would be an advantage to some degree, depending on how unscrupulous you are...at the very least it admittedly does pose a conflict of interest. But I don't like the ancient race trait, and I'm not going to fix up a custom-made map that everyone will benefit from if only I will pay a cost for it...however, we should still be able to tweak the map generation settings enough to balance out some of the issues, do some interesting things...or just simply say to those who pick ice homeworlds "buyer beware" |
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Post by The Kortl Rheus on Dec 29, 2013 4:56:58 GMT
As an iceworld user, I'm ok with buyer beware. I might change it back to rock if we end up not adjusting the final settings, but it might be possible to meet most of our goals without anyone having to view or change the map, hmnm?
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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Dec 29, 2013 5:47:01 GMT
I am working on some changes to the map generation settings right now that should heavily reduce or eliminate the need for tweaking and will result in a balanced map. Give me a couple days to work out the bugs and we will see from there. If we go this route I will probably use a bunch of additional planet pictures, an easy mod addition to everyone if needed.
I would love to use a more extensive system name database. One less thing for me to worry about.
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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Dec 29, 2013 16:38:48 GMT
I have begun the process of fiddling with the settings to provide a more balanced and interesting map. A small side effect of this fiddling is we decided to allow moons to have atmospheres. I am working to retweak the map settings to allow gas planet empires to not be at a huge disadvantage from this. The early results are very promising and with these tweaks we should not have to adjust the map at all. That is my goal anyway.
I am still approx. 2 days away from the final tests. Hopefully this will turn out awesome. The galaxy should even be different and interesting for the veterans.
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Post by Sethulkra Hive on Dec 29, 2013 23:17:59 GMT
I've taken Rocky and No Atmosphere, counting on the moons. Do you think it will still be balanced for non-breathers like me?
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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Dec 29, 2013 23:27:27 GMT
My goal is to have the game game have equal odds of generating any atmosphere type for any planet situation. Being Rock/No atmosphere should be no problem. You will most likely have more larger planets, but less moons than a normal game.
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Post by Sethulkra Hive on Dec 30, 2013 18:50:11 GMT
Actually, the no atmosphere moons are meant to balance the Gas Giants, since there are no No atmosphere Gas Giants for obvious reasons. If you give an atmosphere to moons, races without an atmosphere like me will be severely disadvantaged.
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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Dec 30, 2013 20:15:35 GMT
We will not move forward with any of these changes without some extensive testing as we want to ensure that the planet type and atmosphere type should offer no advantage or disadvantage to any player. We can play with the percentages and types of planets generated to balance it. If we can't get it to come out the way we want, it will not be used.
This was all sparked by Nick doing a survey of multiple randomly generated maps and in the survey it was noticed that Ice planets were significantly rarer than Rock planets (approx. 50% as many ice planets as rock with a sample size of 6 maps surveyed).
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Post by Tau Ceti Empire on Jan 5, 2014 6:42:19 GMT
I have spent the last few days doing some fairly extensive tests. After we noticed the Ice imbalance, we have been balancing the maps under the "Facility Potential" Theory. In this I tried to balance the maps based on the potential number of facilities available for each atmosphere and type. This eliminates the need to look at planet sizes and lets us mostly balance the nones with the gas planets. The original map was balanced in this manner, but weighted to rock planets fairly heavily. This meant that if you chose a gas or ice race, you were at a disadvantage when it came to availability of breathable planets when compared to the rock race. It is not that big of a deal in the stock game, because getting the other colony tech is easy and colonies are cheap to develop, but in the proportions game it does cause unbalances. Follow this link to the raw data of a map generated in the standard format. Control Map DataControl Map FileFor the "Balanced Map" I added more planet picture files, changed how the planets were generated slightly, added small Gas Giants and Added the possibility for limited amounts of moons with atmospheres. The majority of moons will still have no atmospheres to balance out the lack of no atmosphere gas planets. The "Balanced Map" Data can be found in the link below: Balanced Map DataTo view this map in SE4 you will have to do the following: Step 1: Install the extra planet files in the SE4>Pictures>Planets file folder. These pictures will not affect any of your current games as they are just additional files. Only the planet directory picture will be overwritten. Planet Pack FileStep 2: Overwrite the SectType.txt in the SE4>Proportions3.1.3>Data folder. This file will then call the correct planet pictures for each planet as designed. This will affect any future maps created with this version of the mod, but will not affect any current games. SectType.txtStep 3: Download the new map file "Balanced Map"I would like to know everyone's opinion on the "Balanced Map" before we go forward either way. |
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Post by Dominion of Zabéara on Jan 5, 2014 19:57:56 GMT
I just want to thank Aalien for all the work that went into the balanced map; alot of testing, coding, and number crunching was involved on his part, and the achievement of a truly balanced product that is fair to the "none" atmosphere type is an accomplishment.
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Post by Sethulkra Hive on Jan 5, 2014 23:14:36 GMT
Are we going to use that map? If its made available to everyone to see before the game, I think it seems just to me. If we're having only those 8 players, its a good amount of systems. If we're having more than 12 players, since we're already editing the map anyway, we could add some. I believe each player shouldnt have less than 10 systems since some of them will be useless anyway.
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